Nick: We are back with the final episode of season one, and in this episode, episode 15, we look at a role-focused life over a goal-focused life good to be speaking with you, Daiki.
Daiki: Yeah, me too. So let's start the final episode, Nick.
Nick: Sure, so society often emphasises a goal-oriented way of living. We set goals and place a lot of value on achieving them, yet we don't seem to do this for our roles. And as we discussed on episode nine, you coined the term rolefulness.
Distinction between a role-focused and a goal-focused life
Daiki, how would you define the difference between a role-focused life and a goal-focused life?
Daiki: A role-focused life centres around continuous fulfilment or meaningful roles, emphasising the ongoing process of becoming the person you aspire to be. In contrast, a goal-focused life tends to prioritise specific achievements, which may not always contribute to a sense of purpose or long-term satisfaction.
Nick: I like this idea of an ongoing process of becoming the person you aspire to be. And I think in that process, you can have goals that support that process, rather than just kind of random ambitious goals that are tied to money or success.
A role-focused life offers greater fulfilment
So it is more about a sense of purpose, meaning in the context of role. And so why is a role-focused life more fulfilling than a goal-focused life?
Daiki: Generally speaking, with goals, if we achieve them, we consider ourselves successful. If we don't achieve them, we may consider ourselves a failure. In contrast, the role-focused approach focused on the process more than the outcomes.
For example, let's think about the situation where you try to manage to do something and work hard, and it is not successful.
If you focus on the goal and outcomes, you may feel depressed and think that you are useless. But if you focus on the process of your effort and roles, you can feel yourself roleful and increase your self-esteem.
Nick: This almost reminds me of mastery, or somewhat related to shokunin damashi, like process over goal, and that you're always learning and you can always improve, and that failure can lead to learning and the opportunity to try again. So yeah, if we place too much emphasis on goals, it sort of never ends.
We will always be seeking a new goal, because we all know after the initial satisfaction of a goal, you kind of aren't satisfied, you seek more. So process over goal, I think, is something we need to emphasise more.
Success within the framework of our roles
So on the subject of success, how would you define success in the context of our roles?
Daiki: The way of thinking about role success is different between people. I think the sense of role satisfaction and success are quite subjective. Therefore, how you feel about your success in the context of your roles is very important. It is your original sense, and believe your sense is necessary to improve the feeling of role success.
So you talked about the Japanese word shokunin damashi. So shokunin is a craftsman, making something and being a professional. And damashi includes various meanings, like our mind, or a sense, or the spirit.
In Japan, many shokunin, many craftsmen are making traditional things like traditional works, or buildings, or materials--so various things.
So shokunin has a very strong mind and applied their professions. I think that the way they feel satisfaction with their work and the process is very important.
So I think it is common in every profession, like the office workers or the teachers or the doctors or the podcasters--every work has their own profession and own sense. So for every worker, it is very important to be satisfied with their professions and process or roles.
Nick: I think it ties back to this idea of becoming the person you want to be, and that might tie in creative expression and also value alignment, living in accordance with your values. So it's personal and subjective, and it might even be a bit vague, because you're trying to work out who you are.
So it's probably worthwhile making sure you know what values matter to you, so you can feel a sense of achievement or success in the context of your roles.
How to balance societal expectations with your chosen roles
And in a world that often measures success by the achievement of goals, how do you navigate societal expectations while prioritising your chosen roles?
Daiki: Navigating societal expectations in a goal-oriented world requires a mindful approach. I acknowledge external expectations but prioritise roles aligned with my values. By doing so, I aim to redefine success on my own terms, emphasising the journey to personal growth and contribution to others over specific achievements.
Of course, external expectations encourage us and it could increase our motivation. But if we focused on the expectation too much, it would be a great stressor for us. I feel very high stress from it. I recommend you again to focus on the process more than goals. Being mindful about your roles and efforts help you enrich your rolefulness.
Nick: Yeah, that seems crucial, this awareness or mindfulness. Even I tend to be goal-focused. So to set ambitious goals, and then find myself being quite stressed, thinking I have so many things to do. As you know, Daiki, I'm sort of juggling many things.
Daiki: You are very busy.
Nick: So it's quite hard to switch from goal focus to role focus.
Daiki: Yes, same with me. We are recording this episode at the end of December, and we both have been very busy recently. I have a lot of work, too, and so if I focus on goals or outcomes, I feel really depressed because I couldn't do all the work.
I have to work more, and I couldn't finish the work before the deadline. So it's very stressful, but I focused on giving efforts to do the work. I feel satisfaction with that, and it is better for my mental health.
Nick: I'm glad you said that, because I approached you about writing this book, and we met in Brisbane, and you know, of course, very enthusiastic and a lot of positive energy. We had a very ambitious goal to finish the book by the end of this year, and that's probably something I pushed, and then the podcasts.
So we've actually achieved quite a lot, but then I'm also thinking, wow, I set all these goals, and in terms of time, we haven't achieved them. So I was thinking, oh no, I've caused you trouble, I've been busy.
But this idea of, well, hang on, maybe the goal hasn't been achieved, but we have this new role, and we're understanding friends, you've been very understanding of my situation.
We're creating something together, we have this role of co-hosting this podcast, and that's enjoyable. That's something maybe to place more focus on is, okay, we didn't achieve the goal of writing the book by the end of the year, but we've got a friendship, we've got this role of sharing this knowledge. So that's probably far more meaningful. What is more meaningful than a timeline?
Daiki: Yeah. We really enjoy our new roles, and together, we respect our own professions and roles. It is a good time for me to feel rolefulness.
Nick: Thank you.
Daiki: Thank you, too.
Nick: Yeah, it's interesting, we're getting rolefulness by talking about rolefulness. But we've also achieved a lot; it's a lot of work to prepare podcasts and record and edit and do the website. So, yeah, a very enjoyable journey and process.
So this goes back to process. So let's move on to another question. How does adopting a role-focused mindset impact your daily decision-making and overall sense of purpose?
Influence of a role-focused mindset
Daiki: Adopting a role-focused mindset has significantly influenced our daily decision-making. Actually, when I was young, I think I was more goal-oriented than role-oriented, but it gradually shifted to being role-oriented. Instead of asking myself, 'What goal do I need to achieve today?'
I now consider, 'What roles do I need to fulfil, and how can I embody those roles authentically?' This shift has made my actions more purposeful and sustainable.
Nick: I like that question, what roles do I need to or, you know, do I want to fulfil? And how can I embody those roles authentically? That's a far more powerful question than what goals do I need to achieve today?
So, yeah, it really goes back to who you want to become, who you want to be, and ties in purpose, and then you probably make better decisions with that context of who am I or who do I want to be, rather than just what do I want?
Goal-setting in the context of of our roles
So this leads to goal-setting, I think, Daiki, in the context of our roles. So do you want to touch on that?
Daiki: Yes, I think so. The small step approach is one of the good ways to set the goals in the context of our roles. When we start a new project, sometimes we imagine and set great goals; we often think that we have to achieve great goals. It is not a bad idea, but it also includes a risk that we would feel pressure from it and be overwhelmed by the great goals.
Instead, setting small goals is a good way to feel our roles and achievement. We can talk about the plan with our colleagues and work together. It might help you to improve your rolefulness and self-efficacy naturally.
Nick: That makes sense. So the small approach is helpful, I think, in any context, really--small steps to goals.
The importance of self-discovery
Let's get a bit personal and share what role has self-discovery played in your journey towards a role-focused life, and how has it influenced your understanding of your own identity?
Daiki: Self-discovery played a crucial role in my journey towards role-focused life. By understanding my values, strengths, and passions, I was able to identify the roles that align with my authentic self. This ongoing self-awareness has been instrumental in shaping my chosen roles and consequently, my overall sense of identity.
Our study showed that increasing social rolefulness is a key to establishing our own identity. Good relationships with our familiar people Increase social rolefulness and it improves self-esteem. Then we can establish identity based on self-esteem. So I think that social rolefulness and increasing self-esteem are really important points.
Nick: If I reflect on the last three or four years, my role in my business has really changed my life. Before Ikigai Tribe, I was doing work I did not enjoy, and it wasn't really roleful. There was not a strong sense of social connection. But now in my current business, even though it's mainly virtual, I have developed a strong sense of social rolefulness.
I've built connections through, obviously clients, but also with podcasts guests, and you're a very good example of that. We've become friends, and we're now doing this project together, and it's created this new identity.
So I am, in many ways, a different person to who I was four years ago, and I've grown, I've got a network of friends all over the world, and it has been a journey of self-discovery.
I've done things I hadn't done before, and I'm coaching or training people on a cultural concept, and most of these people, they're more academically qualified than me, so it's very strange to have that role.
But it's been well received, and I've built a meaningful role and almost a community, as well. So a role-focused life really has changed my life, and it seemed to serendipitously happen. It wasn't like, 'I will make this role.'
It was more like, well, 'I want to teach the concept of ikigai and do it authentically and respectfully.' How can I do that? I thought, well, it would be good to interview people on my podcast, and then that led to people asking me to coach them.
So your role can almost find you, in a way, if you go on that journey of self-discovery. So that's what happened to me. What about your role? This is sort of a bonus question, so you haven't had time to prepare, but your role as a university lecturer, you're a professor. How does that role play into your life?
Daiki: My professional role, of course, is an ikigai for me. So ikigai or yarigai, yeah. Sometimes it is very challenging for me, I'm very busy and sometimes I feel stressed with my tasks. But it also serves as a motivation for living, for me, it gives me life satisfaction. I think that finding new roles or new sources of ikigai is very interesting, it is very enjoyable for me.
For example, at first, I had a great goal, I wanted to expand the idea of rolefulness for many people all over the world, but it is a very huge goal. It is one of my dreams, but it is difficult to imagine how to achieve that goal. But the opportunity to see you is one of the great chances for me to achieve my dream.
So Nick contacted me, and we started this podcast series, and now we are preparing for writing a new book project. It is a very specific goal, I can imagine the shape of the goals very easily. So providing the contents of the podcast or writing the book chapters, they are very specific goals.
So in that process, I can feel my roles, the satisfaction. Continuous process is very important, to keep my motivation or keep my goals.
So my life and the satisfaction with small processes or the small roles are very important for me. What I want to say is that my social role, or the big goals or the small steps--everything is important for me now. You've got a bonus question. Thank you for your question.
Nick: Well done. So rolefulness, it sort of weaves into all aspects of our life; we have all these roles. And then, as the research I've looked into, people struggle with life when they are roleless and they have no role. They have no sense of belonging, they have no sense of purpose.
So on that theme, can you share a personal experience that led you to shift your focus from specific goals to embracing and embodying certain roles in your life?
Daiki: Yes. When I was young, I had some specific goals, and I thought that I had to achieve them as soon as possible. For example, writing the doctoral thesis and passing the degree, submitting many research papers, and getting the tenure position in university. They were exciting, but also very stressful for me.
But after my son was born, my way of thinking was changing gradually. The work-life balance was important for me, and I came to think that many other roles, like father and husband, are very important for me. So now I enjoy my roles and responsibilities.
For example, being a professor, director of KIDS centre, so it's a centre for supporting children and their families. And, of course, the role as a father of my sons, and my hobbies like writing short stories or novels, and, of course, hosting a podcast with you. So every role is important for me, and I enjoy all these roles.
Nick: Wonderful. Yeah, I do enjoy the podcasts, both podcasts I do. I remember when my son was close to being born, I actually quit a good job, it was actually a four-day a week job, to start my own English school in Japan so I could be closer to him and be always available. I thought, 'I'm going to be a father now, so I need to be always available and kind of closer to home.'
I'm not sure that was the right decision, because starting a new business was very stressful, but the decision-making behind it was, I'm going to be a father, so I want to be closer, I don't want to be too far away, you know, an hour away in Nagoya by train. So yeah, we sometimes make decisions for significant changes when we become a parent.
So it's interesting, sometimes maybe we do make changes for a role we're about to embrace, or a role that life will sort of give us, you know, parenting. Are there specific roles in your life that you find most meaningful or pivotal? And how do they contribute to your overall well-being and satisfaction?
Daiki: It's a really difficult question for me. I can't choose a specific role, but every social and familial role contributes to enriching my well-being. Of course, roles in my hobbies are important, too. As I mentioned, every role is very important--the balance of them is very important for me.
Nick: That is a good point, the balance of our roles, because at our age, we're often very work focused, so our professional roles. Many people sacrifice their home roles, parenting roles, to work.
So how can individuals strike a balance between setting goals and embracing roles? Or maybe even where we have multiple roles, how can we balance them in order to lead a more holistic and purpose-driven life?
Harmony between goal-setting and fulfilling one’s roles
Daiki: Striking a balance between setting goals and embracing roles involves integrating both into a holistic life strategy. Goals can serve as milestones within the broader context of the roles we play. This approach allows for flexibility, adaptability, and a more sustainable pursuit of personal fulfilment.
In addition, I want to tell you again that a role-oriented and small step approach is very important. Not only setting and sharing goals with your colleagues, but also being focused on your role and efforts is also necessary.
Nick: This speaks to me of being mindful in life and mindful of our roles. And I guess our environment will determine our roles. So if we're at work, we have a professional role; if we're at home, we have family role; maybe when we go out, even with friends, we still have some kind of social role, to look after our friends, to help them, to be there for them, and being focused on that is important, and sometimes requires effort.
Transitioning into a role-focused mindset
So what advice do you have for someone who is resonating with this idea of rolefulness? So they're thinking about navigating the transition from a goal-focused mindset to embracing roles for a more fulfilling life?
Daiki: For those transitioning from goal-focused to role-focused mindset, I recommend reflecting on personal values and identifying roles that align with those values. Start small, focus on a few key roles, and gradually expand as you discover what brings the most fulfilment and meaning to your life.
Nick: It always seems to come back to values, living our values, and identifying those roles that align to our values and start small, which always reminds me of Ken Mogi, this idea of start small--Ken Mogi, the famous Japanese neuroscientist who wrote a book on ikigai. And it might also be helpful to have a role model who exemplifies the principles of a role-focused approach to life.
So do you have any role models, Daiki, and how have they influenced your perspective on this role-focused lifestyle?
Daiki: Many people influenced my life and my way of thinking, but my university supervisor is a great example of a role model for me. I learned psychology from her for over seven years, and I really appreciate her support.
She is a very good professor for me, and she listens to her students' voices every time, and gives us very good advice every time. She might be very busy, but she focuses on spending time with her students.
Every time, she looks like she enjoys her life, and I'd like to be like her. So when I was a student, I didn't know that the profession or the work of a university professor was so busy. I thought that they have more free time, or they enjoy their research.
But now, I'm working in university. We have so much work, not only research or having lectures, in addition, we have a lot of meetings.
Like me, my supervisor, I think, was very busy, but I thought that she enjoyed her profession, and she enjoyed her time with her students. I think it is a very happy thing for life, and I really want to be like her.
So it is very important for me to spend time with my students, studying with my students, it is a very happy time for me. So my supervisor is the best role model for me.
Nick: Nice. It's good to have a role model who's quite close to you. Often our role models might be people who are famous, or people we can't really fully know. So to have someone who's had a strong influence over you, of seven years, and can give you real life experience and advice, that would be helpful.
If I were to say someone, I actually like the rolefulness of Ken Mogi; he seems to be very proactive, he has multiple roles, he's a researcher, podcaster, lecturer, he's even the headmaster of a correspondence High School in Japan.
He's often doing keynotes, travelling, and being interviewed. I think he's single, so maybe that gives him the freedom to do so much.
But he even uploads regular YouTube videos almost daily in Japanese and English to share his thoughts. So he seems to have a very active, full life, and he has a very strong social life. It seems he has many roles, but also a very roleful life. So that's something I'd like to aspire to.
Daiki: Yeah, I listened to the Ikigai Podcast, so you and Ken are talking, that was really impressive. As you said, he enjoys every role. He has so many roles, and he's very popular. Everybody likes Ken's personality and his works. The contents of the podcast, as reflected, his life satisfaction, his roles, it was really in depth.
Nick: Yeah, he's an interesting person. I think he's quite a unique personality in Japan, because he has all these titles, professor, but he's very casual, very playful.
Daiki: Very friendly.
Nick: He sort of seems to not even have one main role. He seems to have multiple roles. So it must keep him stimulated and busy.
Daiki: Yeah, the lifestyle is pretty much the idea of rolefulness. So we defined rolefulness as a role satisfaction that is not specific in one role. So Ken's lifestyle really suits the concept of rolefulness.
Nick: We could use him as a case study. We could interview him.
Daiki: Yeah, I hope to interview him.
Nick: Or maybe I'll invite him, so maybe he could be our first guest if we interview guests next year. Well, Daiki, I've really enjoyed this journey with you. So we've recorded 15 episodes for this first season. So thank you for all your insights, your effort, all the preparation, and for becoming a good friend. So I really enjoy our friendship and these new roles we share.
Daiki: Yeah, that was my first challenge, hosting the podcast. At first, I felt a little nervous, but now, I'm very happy. And, yeah, it was a very good experience for me. I'm very happy to establish a wonderful friendship with Nick.
It is my great new role. I'm very happy to complete this series, and I want to continue this podcast series. I hope listeners will enjoy the next series with us.
Nick: Indeed. And let's get the book written, as well.
Daiki: Yes. So, it is our big goal.
Nick: But tied to our role, this role of sharing rolefulness. Wonderful, Daiki, so thank you again for your time, and I'll be speaking to you soon.
Daiki: Thank you very much. See you soon.